Doctrine, Culture the Eternal & the Emerging
Every generation can be distinguished from other generations by a variety of things; music, clothing or even hairstyles (can you say mullet?)
I think it’s important when we discuss changes within the Christian faith that we are clear to distinguish the difference between doctrine (what we believe) and culture (how we relate those beliefs). For instance, there was a time when the thought of playing drums in a worship service was considered outrageous and in some places it still is, but style of music is cultural, not doctrinal. And years ago when the church was reaching out to those them there hippies, they put on rock concerts. Longhaired, bare footed preachers would say things like, "Jesus is far out". Now if we spent time arguing whether 'far out' should really apply to the Son of God or not, we would have failed to understand that 'far out' simply meant groovy, I mean outta sight, or well, you get my point. It meant good (not that I’m old enough to know about that). Now having long hair and saying 'far out' was not essential to reach hippies, but it could help remove some cultural road blocks in that emerging culture. 
I said in my last blog that I was going to talk about the things that I am for and against regarding what is called the emerging church and actually what I have just stated pretty much sums it up. I think it is crucial that we hold tenaciously to our beliefs (doctrine) and tentatively to our traditions (culture). If we are not careful, we can make how we communicate more important than what we communicate and become what Jesus referred to as old wine skins. The adage, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" really doesn’t cut it in most of today’s culture. We need to ask ourselves what use is what we believe if we can’t communicate it effectively to those around us?
So then, how do we relate our beliefs to today’s culture? First, we have to listen. In our society, especially western societies, there are so many cultures and beliefs that one size of communication definitely does not fit all. Say, for example, you are having a conversation with a devout Muslim; do you think inviting them to a crusade is the best way to reach them? Even among Native American Indians the word 'mission' can have negative connotations, so really the only way to be effective in what we say is to first be attentive to the people we are saying them to. Because who knows, some Muslims have no problem going to a crusade, but for others, there is just no way.
I love the way Jesus dialoged with people. He didn’t have this air of being unapproachable or a “know it all” (even though He did). He would draw individuals in by telling them stories they could relate to and asked them questions, making room for them to connect to God personally. “What does it profit if a man gains the world and loses his soul? Or what will a man give in exchange for his soul?” “What good is it if you love those who love you, what reward is there for that?” We need to take a good look at how we communicate our beliefs to others. It's not about changing the message, it’s about engaging people in conversation with this message so that they are able to encounter God and find the life that is found in Him.
I think it’s important when we discuss changes within the Christian faith that we are clear to distinguish the difference between doctrine (what we believe) and culture (how we relate those beliefs). For instance, there was a time when the thought of playing drums in a worship service was considered outrageous and in some places it still is, but style of music is cultural, not doctrinal. And years ago when the church was reaching out to those them there hippies, they put on rock concerts. Longhaired, bare footed preachers would say things like, "Jesus is far out". Now if we spent time arguing whether 'far out' should really apply to the Son of God or not, we would have failed to understand that 'far out' simply meant groovy, I mean outta sight, or well, you get my point. It meant good (not that I’m old enough to know about that). Now having long hair and saying 'far out' was not essential to reach hippies, but it could help remove some cultural road blocks in that emerging culture. I said in my last blog that I was going to talk about the things that I am for and against regarding what is called the emerging church and actually what I have just stated pretty much sums it up. I think it is crucial that we hold tenaciously to our beliefs (doctrine) and tentatively to our traditions (culture). If we are not careful, we can make how we communicate more important than what we communicate and become what Jesus referred to as old wine skins. The adage, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it" really doesn’t cut it in most of today’s culture. We need to ask ourselves what use is what we believe if we can’t communicate it effectively to those around us? So then, how do we relate our beliefs to today’s culture? First, we have to listen. In our society, especially western societies, there are so many cultures and beliefs that one size of communication definitely does not fit all. Say, for example, you are having a conversation with a devout Muslim; do you think inviting them to a crusade is the best way to reach them? Even among Native American Indians the word 'mission' can have negative connotations, so really the only way to be effective in what we say is to first be attentive to the people we are saying them to. Because who knows, some Muslims have no problem going to a crusade, but for others, there is just no way.
36 comments:
I loved how you put this. Words and "titles" can often times be so misleading, especially when "labels" mean different things to different people. The Word of GOD never changes, but the presentation can and should.
For me the same is true of music. Some hymns are difficult for me to relate to and internalize, the message is still true but a song that speaks to my heart is the one I can relate to.
Hey Lori! What a great example you made with music, true indeed. Thanks my friend
Hi Sam,
Thanks for this. We do need to continue to reach out to those who may be labeled unreachable or undesirable. And we, like Jesus need to meet them on their level. But, just as Lori said, the Word of God never changes. And we need to be sure that when we "speak the language", we accurately reveal the character and actions of the Lord. I was just thinking about how even our English language waters down the true meaning of Agape(Love). And how we need to use illustrations to show the true meaning. Also, even though we relate to them, we need to continue to be set apart. Thank the Holy Spirit for His guidance and blessings to help us along the way.
By the way, I heard you were starting to hold Sunday services. Praise the Lord! You are in my prayers. May the Lord continue to bless you - James
Hello pastor Sam, Ive read both your blogs (bath water and the eternal)In each you seem to be leading and unable at this time to clearly state your postion. Or to define what the emergent or emerging church is. there are difinetly leaders in this movement and if you can present a list of books, authors, church leaders in the movement who you respect i.e. are emulating or are being influenced by that would give a clearer postion on were you are. Amen?
Thanks James, that is the challenge, to effectively represent the Lord as He is revealed through scripture.
Feel bad asking this, but which James are you?
Dear Anonymous, (I feel like Anne Landers) Sorry you are unclear about my position. I think in part it is because I believe that what has been labeled emerging or emergent is unclear in itself. I disagree that there are definite leaders in the movement. There are popular books and popular names, but I don’t think they speak for all of what is referred to with this topic.
I don’t think Brian McLaren sees eye to eye with Erwin McManus or that Rob Bell and Dan Kimble have all the same views, but all fall under the label (I think), but I appreciate you wanting to know my stance and what I shared in my second blog was my general summation of what I personally consider the relevance of the “emerging” mind set.
This will be a long response, but I don’t want to dodge your question regarding who I have drawn from in this area, or what I think you are trying to get at. I do want to say as a disclaimer that I do not agree in every area with those who I have drawn from and I appreciate A.W. Tozer’s statement, "A bee can get pollen from a weed as well as a flower".
I think my first encounter with a service that was reaching young adults in a fresh and relevant way was at Reality in Carpinteria with Britt Merrick. That was a ministry that I emulated much of what I did when I did e3; the candles, the way we structured the service, how we did some of our prayer and communion times. I also appreciate Dan Kimble’s statements in his book, 'The Emerging Church', that it is important that we communicate clearly and regularly the tough things in scripture, such as Jesus being the only way to God, that the scriptures are unique from other “spiritual” writings, and are
in fact “God Breathed”, the reality of hell, sin and God’s judgment, human sexuality and homosexuality. I also like Erwin Mc Manus' series, 'Life’s Toughest Questions'. I think it is one of the best I’ve heard in dealing with these issues. It reminded me of C.S. Lewis' 'Mere Christianity', but for today’s culture and I would highly recommend his book, “The Barbarian Way”.
I hope this brings some clarity to where I stand. Usually those who question a person’s doctrine (from the second blog) have these topics in mind, but I do think that most who know me, know I believe these things. Maybe we just need to get to know each other better? I am open.
Sam
Thanks Sam for that response you gave. I would agree that the term leaders was a little premature. but there are definite people who have emerged ( No pun intended)Well maybe a little ha! ha! As spokes persons for the movement.As its apparent in the men you chose to mention. Lets start with Brian Mclaren. Where would you say you agree with him or disagree with him (if you agree or disagree)on his approach on a post moden culture with the gospel message? Lets start with that as we explore what that message is. Amen? I would like to know you better as well.
Psalm 119:105
Hey again anonymous, I think instead of me continuing to write responses regarding all of the things I agree or disagree with about Brian McLaren or the others I will abridge a couple of more thoughts which apply to McLaren, but actually, first I would like to ask if you’ve read a complete book by him (or any of the others) or has it just been quotes explained by someone else from him? You don’t need to write back a response, and i don't mean this as a challenge, the reason I ask is two fold. One, I think it’s dangerous if we regularly let others speak to us about others without hearing from the source. Second, is because what I do like about reading Brian, Donald Miller and others is how it makes me think in ways that I usually wouldn’t and challenges how I can better express my beliefs to those with diverse mind sets.
One of the main things I remember disagreeing with Brian’s “approach”, is that culture interprets the scripture; I believe that the scriptures stands sure regardless of the changing culture.
I know of a few who also might be labeled emergent that have problems with what Brian writes and do not consider him their spokesman.
Maranatha Sam, Fair enough. although my intent is not to pigeon hole you but to get a clear understanding of the emergent church.And as an ordained pastor through the CC movement you must know CC views on the emergent church! would you be considered as part of that movement? would that be a correct way to direct it? I dont know a lot about the emergent church and if i can say so i think not many evangelicals no much about it unless they have been directly influenced or spoken to someone who has been a part of it. I believe I have been blessed with a gift from the Lord called discernment. and my discernment does not have a good feeling about this new movement. I have read some things, I have not read any books from Brian Mclaren although like you have said I have heard quotes from him and frankly I think his mind set is a bit scary! So I was hoping to get a better understanding on what the emergent church is and discern what spirit is leading it. I pray that it is not the spirit of anti Christ and this is not a doctrine of demons and I fear if it is, Then Paul's warning to Timothy might apply hear.
See 1 Timothy 4:1-2. some of the concerns I have is the introduction of mysticism, using icons and images in worship,a return to the ancient medieval church which in fact is not a picture of an Acts church but an apostate Roman Catholic Church. A moving away from absolute truth, the infallibility of scripture and a post modern view. Also I have heard it said i believe Brian Mclaren said he believe's in the infallibility of scripture but there isnt any infallible men to translate scripture so no one can interpret the scriptures acuretley. That to me is out there. The bible Gods word says " however, when He the spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and he will tell you things to come. John 16:13. So we would'nt be looking to fallible men to lead us to all truth that is the job of the Holy spirit. anyway sorry for babbling on. Iim as you can see concerned and in a defensive posture to test all things and to sanctify the Lord God in your hearts, and always be ready to give a defense to everyone who asks you a reason for the hope that is in you, with meekness and fear.1 Peter 3:15. May the lord lead you to his truth Sam a concerned brother.
Dear concerned brother (is that a step up from anonymous?), I believe that I have already expressed that you will not be able to find clarity regarding the emergent church because it means so many different things to so many different people, even Brian Brodersen recently said on the radio that people are making more out of this than is really there, and I totally agree, this is not a movement of like minded people, in fact it has become more of a bandwagon, but I feel I’m repeating myself.
I found it curious, when you wrote “as an ordained pastor through the CC movement you must know CC views on the emergent church!” Curious for a couple of reasons, but I will just state the one. You see I have heard and read very different opinions on this whole emergent topic from various CC pastors, does this mean that some CC pastors are not part of the CC movement? I would recommend caution here lest we start naming names and associating them with something that is itself intrinsically unclear. Hey! That’s what happened to me! And why I wrote about all this in the first place!!
But I’m sure if you have the gift of discernment, you will be able to discern if a person is being vilified, not for what they believe but for what someone has unclearly labeled them. Amen?
I think it is interesting, as anonymous stated, that Sam continues to be so elusive about what the "emergent church" stands for. Seems to me that Calvary Chapel (whom I have a great deal of respect for) has taken a stand on the emerging church - not a good one I might add. Many of the pastors of Calvary Chapel including Chuck Smith, seem to have no trouble identifying the characteristics of this new movement. I am surprised Sam, with your knowledge and discernment that you are struggling so hard with your interpretation. Maybe your elusiveness has a motive? Not accusing at all, I have been so enlightened by your teachings in years past when I have attended services at CCU. Just curious as to why you might not want to label yourself as an emergent pastor, clearly in many of your other comments you are so direct in your statements.
Unfortunately, what it seems like you are saying to me - is that we need to shift with the paradigm - you know, go the way of culture to make others feel more comfortable (or reachable as you put it). I like how you continue to emphasize that the scriptures stand firm, and can't be shifted - but the preachers of the gospel, well I guess that's another story. Sounds a bit like the Gnostics of old to me?????????
Please correct me if I am mistaken. The position of the emerging church is very clear to me - and it seems fairly clear to you in your statements. Why not just get on the bandwagon and give it your full support. Or Get back on the path and walk upright, not in piousness, but in loving example of the One who calls us to be set apart.
Sorry I have to sign this as anonymous as well, it doesn't seem to let me enter a password.....
One more thing.... :) I guess I should call myself Anonymous #2 so you can tell us apart. Ha! Maybe I'll just call myself thorn in the side, then you will know :)
Sorry to run on - I know you are a busy man. Thanks for taking the time to hear me out.
I am so glad that God gives us EVERYTHING WE NEED in His word to live a life of Godliness - (including preaching the gospel I assume) and that since it is the Holy Spirit, who does the work, and not myself. He can minister to anyone anywhere with just the simplicity of the Word of God. Remember Phillip and the Ethiopian?? (Then Philip opened his mouth and, beginning with this scripture passage, he proclaimed Jesus to him.) Acts 8:35. I don't think Phillip had time to understand and adapt to the culture of the eunich? The Word was sufficient.
No need to change our outward style just to draw someone in (that almost seems deceptive) I think that by changing just a few outward things, it is so easy to slip into the world that God is trying to bring us out of. It doesn't say, Be in the world AND of the world.
Sanctification my friend. Set apart, not because we are better - we most certainly are not, but because we love and serve a Holy God who calls us to be Holy and set apart for Him.
By the way, I am very passionate about this issue - I honestly mean NO disrespect toward you at all Sam. I truly love you as my brother in Christ. I hope you can take this for constructive criticism only. XOXOXO
Oh my gosh, this has become sad and comical. Let me ask a question since everyone seems to know the definition of emergent but me. What do you do when someone is labeled emergent (not speaking of myself), but does not believe the things that Charlie Campbell or Chuck Smith defines as emergent? (The Baby and the Bath Water)
As far as adapting to culture, Paul became all things to all men, Jews and Greeks, yet stayed a humble servant of Jesus. Missionaries do the same when they go to Spain, Mexico or wherever. It’s not compromising or deceptive to be wise as a serpent and harmless as a dove. Really, that’s all I want to do. (Doctrine, Culture, the Emerging & the Eternal).
Sorry you couldn't sign in,
Sam
Sam by no means am I trying to villianous you in anyway.And for as far as my statement about you being an ordained pastor through the Calvary movent, I was refering to you directly that you ought!! to know CC postion on the emergent church movement, and it is a movement btw! We are not talking about or to anyone else. You placed this post on an open forum and I responed to it. Sam you keep saying you have made your postion clear. Well the only thing you have made clear is bee's get pollen from flowers and weed's?? I dont get that, if you are advocating that we are to look to the world or some sort of new paradigm to glean from i think you are mistaken. Jesus is the same today and forever. We dont need to change to reach a lost world because the truth is By grace you are saved through faith and that not of yourself; it is the gift of God. Ephesians 2:8. And Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Romans 10:17. Salvation is of the Lord God is the one who reveals the truth to a non believer. Remember what Jesus said to Peter after he made the statement "you are the Christ the Son of the living God". Matthew 16:16. And Jesus said to him, Blessed are you Simon Bar Jonah for flesh and blood has not revealed this to you but My Father who is in heaven. Matthew 16:17. So its not our message but the gospel message which we heard by which we recieved and in which we stand. By which we are saved. 1 Corinthians 15:1-2. So all Iam saying Sam is this we dont need to change to adapt to a fallen world there is nothing new under the sun. what we need do is be faithful to deliver the gospel message. And to close you seem to be snubing a gift I have recieved fromt the HS! I just would close in saying if you have been blessed with a gift as you have been to teach I would not dare be arragant to what God has done but to be a good stewart to the gift God has has allowed you to have. No one is questiong your love and devotion to the lord Sam what we are questioning is your discernment and direction you may be going in. Do you not heed the warning from brothers and sisters who care for you? our has pride now affected your judgement? Grace and peace be with you Sam. I know the Lord desires to do great things in and through you be faithful brother I"ll pray for you
Hello Sam, thank you for your blogs they are filled with love and wisdom. I want to say that I fellowship at a calvary chapel also and I don't feel threatened with your comments about what is or who is emergent or whatever they call it. I have even heard some calvary chapel pastors say good things about Rick Warren. I think he is considered emergent to.
I liked how you remind us of how Jesus spoke to the people,,, not as a know it all (even though he did!). That encourages me to share with my friends and family and coworkers the gospel without fear but with love and patience like Jesus since I am not a know it all but I know Jesus and he loves me.
God bless you Sam keep writing. I will pray for you and for anonymous to,, like my pastor says- we just need to love people like Jesus,, the names dont matter. Your brother in Christ, Jesse
*at a public computer at schloztskys*
Wow, sounds like Calvary Chapel is the only way truth and life; according to anonymous#2! Calvary Chapel is a great fellowship of churches but like all churches, there are flaws (shock-horror!). Like many others, I could tell a lot of true stories that would send shivers down any caring believer. But what for? I, we need to move forward and 'take heed to ourselves'.
And like you can't write you name within the comment Anonymous#2? (This is PETE by the way). So you use anonymous? Come on - who are you? Not all of us have the spirit of discernment like you.
Isn't there something better we could all be doing than studying what 'movement' is wrong or right? Seems like a bunch of competitive school boys to me! Or much like the disciples were, when they tattled to Jesus that John the Baptist's disciples were doing good things too. It's dangerous to miss the whole point. I love that the Gospel is being spread in all areas of life thanks to the diverse churches out there. But for those who adhere to set ways, people are decaying right in front of them. All we want to do is decide who gets in our exclusive club of 'rightness'? In the meantime we become so alienated from the world around us because we have taken 'set apart' to include culture. Is that what Jesus would do? What about Matthew's party? Filled with whores and tax collectors, Jesus was there!
Movement? I think when we use the term 'movement' we forget the entire lifeline: It starts with a man, becomes a movement, turns into a machine, and becomes an ineffective monument. Where is CC today? Sure it was a movement back in the early 70's but I don't see CCs filled with barefoot hippies anymore. So is it now a machine or a monument? Shouldn't we be concerned more about what our current condition is, both personally and corporately? Last time I read my Bible there is no mention of any denomination (including the non-denomination denomination). But for some reason we humans love to take sides within our own camp!
I love Chuck Smith's years of great studies, Rob Bell's book 'Velvet Elvis', Erwin McManus' 'Chasing Daylight' and 'Unstoppable Force' and more. Why? Because they have and do challenge me and because I learn so much!
I love the fact that Sam is open to reaching people RIGHT WHERE THEY ARE! You go Sam - there are so many looking for hope! I pray that within your fellowship, life will start there for many!
Thanks anonymous for the prayers
Thanks Jesse for the kind words and encouragement and keep on sharing the good message with those around you.
And as for you Pete... thanks for stirring things up just as the dust is settling! haha
I think you owe me a lunch next time you're in the states. :)
Well let's see....
Seems Pete has stirred things up a bit, as Pastor Sam has so greatly accredited him so here we go.
As far as calling myself Anonymous #2 - just to clarify myself from my apparent like-minded brother Anonymous. I don't feel led to reveal my identity just yet, as to cause possible division and as you put it (choosing sides). Like you said, as humans we like to pick a side and I have NO intention of causing a major "line in the sand" and I think that revealing who I am may do just that. I am not trying to ailianate anyone, just coming to an understanding and giving a warning to others, which so far - seems to be going unheeded. I think the subtlety of this movement (we could call it something else if that makes you feel better) is interesting.... Everyone on the bandwagon, so to speak, seems to be saying the same thing. "what's the big deal" - "it's not such a big thing". They are right in one way - it isn't well known enough in the church. Everyone needs to be way more informed on this subject. It is a big deal - it DOES involve interpreting the word of God differently. You keep saying that it doesn't involve doctrine, yet truly I say to you that what is happening here IS about doctrine. Saying that it doesn't does not make it so.
I do however know several of my Christian brothers and sisters who are on the same page as I, so I will continue once again with the utmost respect for Pastor Sam (who I dearly love) and for my brother Pete (with whom I am unaquainted).
I must first say that in no way am I advocating a "commune" mentality nor locking ourselves away from all the "wicked sinners" of the world - of which I am chief by the way, to quote my favorite apostle. I am merely stating the obvious point that The scriptures of old - that are God breathed, are 100% complete and accurate and in and of themselves are able to convert the wisest of intellectuals and the simplest of minds. I also by no means believe Calvary Chapel to be the end all be all of Christianity. There are several stories with which I am all to well aware of flaws and bad decisions - all because the church is MAN - shock and horror!
No one is perfect, less our Savior Himself. There will always be problems in the church, because we are the church. I was merely stating the respect I have for the opinions of many learned pastors that have made reliable sound comments in the past.
There is a like-mindedness between myself and them. I also believe and have been told in the past that I have the gift of discernment and have been discerning this for quite some time. I have read and studied as was suggested to me and I keep coming up with the same scriptures.
Please read 1 Cor. 1:18- 2:16... All about the wisdom of men and the wisdom of God. We must be ever so careful that we do not rely on our own wisdom to persuade others into the kingdom. It's like we need to make it look better than it is because what we have been taught all this time just isn't sufficient anymore! Come On! Seriously?!?!?!?
We are all talking about the same thing aren't we? Reaching out to others with the word that saves? Jesus ministered to the sick, the whores and tax collecters, he didn't BECOME LIKE THEM!!!!
He certainly did not instruct US to become like the world, but instead go into the world to let others see His light in us and they would either run from it - into further darkness, or be drawn out by it. Seeing the difference and desiring to become more like the one who made them...
There needs to be a CLEAR understanding. I believe that God will use you Sam, in great ways. The influences that you allow into your head just might be coming from another source other than or Lord. Take every thought captive and weigh it out against what you know to be true.
You consider yourself enlightened, that could be a dangerous thing if your willing to sacrifice the enlightenment that God has already given you in His word.
I know you already know these things, for you are not a babe. You have been through many challenges in your life that have brought you to the place you are now. You feel you are being led to reach a "new generation" for the Kingdom. I see that your intentions are valiant. Sometimes though, we can let our feelings and emotions get the better of us, and we all know that our hearts are desperately wicked.
I guess that the itching ears are being satisfied for the time being...
All in Love!
Thorn
Dear Thorn (I don’t see you as that by the way), I have a simple question, what should we do when people who are well known are labeled emergent, but do not believe the things that Charlie Campbell, Chuck Smith and others warn about the emergent Church?
I respect your anonymity, I’m sure I know you and love you even as you have shared you love me. I haven’t changed what I believe or the way I desire to reach people. I still believe God will help us to be Holy, but will not help us to be anything less.
Sam
ok, I'm going to barf if I hear any more discussion on the emergent church! Can we just get past this and agree to disagree? That's a term I hesitate to use, but one I feel is applicable here. I suppose the comment section is for dialogue such as this. Maybe I should have stopped reading these comments a long time ago. I guess the only reason I haven't stopped reading yet is 'cause I'm bored since I quit my job. Pete, as always... you rock! I laughed 'til I cried when I read what you wrote about not all of us having the gift of discernment. That was classic, bro. Pastor Sam, of all the people I personally know, you top the list of people who genuinely care about, and does something about, reaching the lost. Maybe our energies could be better used to encourage one another to do the same. Can't wait 'til Friday...
Yeah lets all be just one big eccumincal church lets just set aside doctrine and except everyones belifs because they rock for the sake of unity. That really gives me the desire to contened earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints. Jude 1:3
Maybe its time to define what the emergent church is! And thinking Gods gift of discernment is funny. I'll pray you will recieve this gift. And by the way the emergent church is more then a disagreement.
You know on second thought I might have been in the flesh. Praise God we have given you are concerns maybe you dont have discernment. Iam praying everthing will work out for the glory of God Sam God bless
Mary, I am ever so disappointed in your flagrant cynicism. Clearly, you don't have anything valid to add to the discussion to stoop to such childish discourse. Perhaps you are right. You might just want to stay away from reading these comments if you don't have anything pertinent to add.
And I am afraid we can't just "agree to disagree" since we are not trying to sway one another in one direction or another - just clarifying where we all stand. Having dignified and thoughtful conversations with respect for one another's positions. So sorry to hear of your recent boredom, hopefully you find a more affirming way to spend your time.
I do think it was a bit haughty and juvenile of you to give Pete "props" for his slam on anonymous' having the gift of discernment. <<"That was classic, bro.">>
Are you serious??? Are we in high school??? Man, that was a surprisingly sad comment from you my dear lady. This is not some big joke forum for you to discredit and make fun of others - I'm pretty sure we aren't here to do that are we?
Maybe YOUR energies could be used to be a diligent student of God's word so that you might appropriately be able to respond in a polite and prudent manner in such a forum as this. Sarcasm and dim wit are not called for in serious discussions as these.
I am sad to see that you do not take this as serious as myself and the others who are here to have our relevant questions answered. All we desire is to get to the bottom of the truth here. I don't think anyone needs to be ridiculed for that. Do you?
Thorn (Anon #2)
Sam -
So glad you don't see me as a thorn - just trying to lighten the mood a bit and define my anonymity just a tad. :) I want to use this open forum to be able to discuss relevant things with you, and clearly, I am not the only one.
In answer to your question - I am not sure if you are speaking of yourself here, but if someone has labeled you as emergent - and it is not myself, aren't you curious as to why? When you started the E3 ministry at CCU wasn't one of the e's EMERGE? What is it you are doing, teaching or saying about this post modern culture that has everyone so confused? Seems to me that it would be relatively simple to denounce yourself from the emergent "revolution" by stating what it is you do not agree with. I'll list a few things, and maybe you can clarify.....
1. What about the emphasis on experience and feelings over absolute truth?
2.What about not emphasizing traditional creeds and doctrines of the church - shunning them as "stale traditionalism".
3.What does it mean exactly to re-evaluate and re-examine Christianity in our society and the world today?
4. What about the proclamation of the gospel as being secondary to relationships with other people?
I understand that there is no official emergent church or emerging church doctrine and therefore no real structure to examine. There are however many emerging church pastor/authors, of whose writings I know you are familiar. Don't you see any of this as being about rejecting and sacrificing many of the biblical truths we cling to today? Just so people can feel good about their works or lack thereof and we can all just "get along" with one another. Is this the point of it all?
I hope not.
What about repentance and exhortation, conviction and sanctification?
The more I hear of how so many are disillusioned with the traditional orthodox church, (and it's stale teachings) the more concerned I become. Not because of what the church is missing - because of the discontentment, the complaining and the whining that is going on. The need to be captivated and entertained at every message - People are so self focused!
I know that there are just a few positive things about the so called emerging church, one being the establishment of solid relationships with people and meeting them on their level, wherever they are (isn't that called street witnessing? I thought we already did that?)
But what about the idea of presenting people with doctrinal truths only after they have become part of our lives. What if they die BEFORE that happens? Can't we preach the gospel and get to know someone all at once? I am pretty sure this is what Jesus did. He involved himself in the disciples lives and as he grew close to them, he taught them as they followed him. At once when he called them, they came.
What I am simply asking I guess is on the major blatant things that seem to stand out from this emerging movement - where do you stand?
I am blessed to hear that you have not changed (although you say you have been enlightened and have been challenged to think things you would never have thought) Kinda sounds a little like change to me... :)
I pray that you will continue to adhere to the essentials of the Christian faith, as you have previously stated.
Not sure what you meant by God not helping us be anything less than Holy - I suppose we must agree there.
In His Abiding Love -
Thorn
This is a really good clip regarding today's culture. Check it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNuSBGa1mLM
One cannot redefine Christianity. It is what it is.
For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not with wisdom of words, lest the cross of Christ should be made of no effect. 1 Cor. 1:17
Mary,Pete,thank you! Sam Keep up the the good work, sharing Jesus & his Holy truths!!(did I say that right?) :)
test
test2
greetings all!larry here,i understand warnings or exhortations just as much as the next believer, but there is neither here.this is simply a self absorbed rant by someone who has just read an article on the emerging church, and for some reason, has decided to appoint themselves some sort of advocate or watch dog, why you (sam)are even being questioned in such a way is beyond alot of folks. saddly it is being done under the guise of love and respect,peppered with scripture to sound oh so holy,the bible warns that where words are many sin is not far... further more there are several grounded and mature christians attending your studies sam who know that your doctrine is that of christ, if you want to speak of discernment. and by the way anony.#1 and anony.#2 sound like the same thorn...sam god has given you a vision, that seems to be comming into fruition!my family and i love and support you,may god continue to bless you and yours.
I think that it is a blessing that Sam has so many to speak on his behalf.
So sorry we were unable to have sound discussion without causing division or mud-slinging. Should have known better.
As for you my brother Larry,
all I can wish for you is the best, it is unfortunate that you choose to pass judgment on someone with the same hypocrisy that you claim is unjustly done to others.
I am saddened that you think you know me so well - believe me, you do not.
I can honestly say that my heart before the Lord is just and prudent. I never slandered anyone or hurled hurtful accusations in a belligerent manner. I have conducted all of my questions in a straight-foreword and respectful way.
Apparently there are those who let their passions determine their actions. And for that, it is apparent that I must retreat - questions lingering.
I can not say who anonymous #1 is, but despite YOUR discernment dearest friend, I promise you it is not me......
I know, as I have said before that the Lord will greatly use this ministry. I have no doubt, it will be able to grow and mature those in their spiritual walk, who desire the true graciousness of our God
(1 Pet 2: 1-3) I know many of the mature servants that attend will be able to help lead the Genesis ministry.
God Bless you Sam,
No longer a thorn.........
Cindy said, The bottom line is to adhere to the word of God. Jesus shed his innocent blood on the Cross to set us sinners free. It is only by God's grace through faith that us wretched sinners will enter into God's Kingdom. Take up the cross minute by minute and spread God's truth. The end is near and everyone need's to hear the truth. Let's stick to the truth,spread Jesus' words, live by the Sword and walk in the Holy Spirit. We Love You Pastor Sam
Hey Pastor Sam and Corine, Its the Mackeys. We love you and miss you guys. We were blessed to hear you came back to the area, but sad to hear stuff and thats what it is, stuff. I have been praying for all churches. My sister, my cousin and as well as for Robert and myself have been focused on problems around us. The Lord gave me this verse to share with my sister, cousin and for my family: John 21:24 ...What is that to you, you follow Me (Jesus). So let us keep our focus on Jesus, that goes for all our brothers and sisters in Christ. I miss you Corine, please pass that on to her. Rosemary
Sam. You mentioned Rob Bell. I think he is one of the "main" guys of the emerging church movement. I attended a couple of your E3 services and each time I was there you showed a Rob Bell nooma video. I strongly disagree with a lot of his beliefs. What is your opinion of Rob Bell? Do you support his beliefs? Are you still showing his nooma videos at your services?
I did play for Randy some of the nooma videos that I showed at e3 and he liked them as at the time.
I haven’t shown a Rob Bell video since I was at CC Upland and I too have problems with some of his beliefs.
There is some crazy stuff going on in the church nowadays. I am so sure that Pastor Sam knows of the teachings of men like Brian McLaren, Doug Padgitt, and Rob Bell. These men differ in areas of doctrine for sure but all seem to be falling away from sound biblical teaching. There is so much ignorance in the body about the deceitful subtleness of these 'new' philosophies. We must keep our eyes on Jesus definitely, but also be aware of what is out there so we can warn others. I trust Sam has his new sheep's best interest at heart and will direct them accordingly.... Props to you my bro Sam!
GOD THE WORD OF GOD AND THE SOULS OF MEN thats what its all about!
Amen to that, sister Colleen.
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